[Transcribed by Emily Watts]

Opening Clip

[00:00:00] JOHN: What stands out in our ringing room, is a small piece of wood that when you enter the room, you will see it and you'll read it and it's written, ' silence'.
So, then there are other words in Swahili, which means you should keep quiet in this room. So, everyone who comes in that room will see that board. Yeah.

 

[Ringing by the Society of Cambridge Youths]

 

Welcome to Fun with Bells: Meet Our Guests

[00:00:29] CATHY: Hi, welcome to Fun with Bells, a podcast for bell ringers hosted by me, Cathy Booth. My guests today are from sub-Saharan Africa. I'd like them to introduce themselves. If you could go first, John.
[00:00:42] JOHN: Thank you. Thank you so much. 

John's Introduction: The Unique Bells of Kilifi

[00:00:44] JOHN: My name is, John Malala. I come from the coastal parts of Kenya. It's called Kilifi. And in Kilifi we are blessed to have a church built by colonialists. And one of the last district commissioner who was Paul Kelly, made sure that we have, church bells in Kilifi.
So to ring at St. Thomas Memorial, ACK Church in Kilifi. Which is, the only church that has bells in Kenya. And the nearest tower is in Zimbabwe. So, we are the only church which has bells in East Africa. 

Deborah's Introduction

[00:01:22] CATHY: Debbie. if you could introduce yourself too.
[00:01:24] DEBBIE: Yeah. sure. I'm Deborah Mulobi. I reside in Kilifi, Kenya. I'm privileged to be a member of ACK St. Thomas Church and a ringer in the same church. 

The Fascinating History of Kilifi's Church Bells

[00:01:35] CATHY: I'd like to know a bit more about the bells at Kilifi.
[00:01:38] JOHN: The history is that the last district commissioner, from UK Paul Kelly, played a major role in building the church. And it was only for the whites who were residing in Kilifi. So, being a leader in Kilifi, he collected some building materials from outside Kilifi, and he was using the locals to build that church. It was built by the prisoners. It was a very small church, could accommodate about 50 people. Paul Kelly used his contacts in UK to get the bells. So, he got the bells, and then he transported them to Kenya. Then they are cast at Kilifi St. Thomas Memorial Church.
Then, they started ringing, but not many people knew what was happening at the church because most of the black people were not going to the church. So, perhaps they felt like it was just an activity which was meant for people who were at the church.

The Transformation of Kilifi's Bell Ringing Community

[00:02:39] CATHY: When did that change?
[00:02:42] JOHN: So the church was constructed, in around 1914. And then in 1964, they were welcome to go to church. So, the locals in Kilifi started working with Paul Kelly because now Paul Kelly was finishing his work so that he can go back to UK.
So, when this local, started working with Paul Kelly, then Paul Kelly invited them to church so they could not understand the language, but they had someone who could interpret. So, when they went to the church is when they developed an interest to try out the bells. So, they were taught how to ring the bells, but it was not that extensive training.
So, they could just ring I think rounds only, but they could not ring the methods. But again, in 1994, we had people who visited Kenya. And in Kilifi, and then they found the bells. Then, everything changed in 1994 because they decided that they need a team from Kilifi to visit UK so that they can be taught how to ring the bells.
So, there were about, seven, eight people who visited UK. Then they were trained on how to ring the bells. When they came back, is when almost everyone now wanted to ring the bells.
The first group they visited in UK 1994. Then 2015, we had another group and 2017 and Debbie and I happened to be beneficiaries of the two trips in 2015 and 2017.
[00:04:20] CATHY: Debbie, can you describe the ringing room at Kilifi?

A Glimpse into the Ringing Room at Kilifi

[00:04:24] DEBBIE: We have a bell tower, which is not big but it's In our church. We have a ring of six bells, and they're pretty much lighter than what we found in the UK So, yeah, our sallies are actually made using stripes, red and green, which I know we got it from, our flag, Kenyan flag. And then we also have a cabinet where we keep, the ringing books. We also have handbells, which we also keep there. We got exposed to the visits in the UK, some candies in the churches for ringers. So, when we came back, we also adopted that. So, we also have some candies in the ringing room, and it was a nice way to bring children on board who we started training and they were able to come up so well with that and they learnt the ringing skill so fast and we are able to enjoy ringing together with them and we are able to also make, some strides to ring different methods with the kids on board. 

Encouraging the Next Generation with Sweets

[00:05:28] CATHY: So, you've encouraged the children with the sweets?
[00:05:31] DEBBIE: Yes. It was a way that actually made them come because after we were done ringing, they could be like, "Hey, Debbie, sweet sweet." And then you are like, okay. So, apparently it attracted them.
[00:05:45] CATHY: Are there any inscriptions on your bells?
[00:05:48] JOHN: There are no inscriptions. But, what stands out in our ringing room is a small, piece of wood that when you enter the room, you will see it and you'll read it and it's written, ' silence'.
So then there are other words in Swahili, which means you should keep quiet in this room. So, everyone who comes in that room will see that board. 

The Significance of Silence and Discipline in Ringing

[00:06:13] CATHY: And are you all very quiet then?
[00:06:16] JOHN: Yeah, I I think it gives us discipline to keep quiet and to minimize movement when the ringing is going on.
[00:06:24] DEBBIE: And also for concentration. Apparently for concentration, you have to be quiet for you to be able to ring well, so you don't need distractions.
[00:06:34] CATHY: Absolutely. So is there anything else to say about the church or the bells or the ringing room? 

Improvements and Innovations in Kilifi's Bell Tower

[00:06:42] JOHN: Yeah, maybe something to mention is that in 1994, when this first group visited UK actually the bell room itself, where the bells are, it was just open. It was not covered. So, when the team came back from UK they decided now they need to cover the bells because, the church is also near the ocean. So, they felt that those bells need to be covered. And the room is I think it was made to, to accommodate eight bells, but now we only have six bells. The weight of our tenor bell is 144 kilograms.

John's Personal Bell Ringing Journey

[00:07:24] CATHY: John, can you tell me why did you start ringing?
[00:07:28] JOHN: I started ringing sometimes 2007, but I was just, a member who would go into the room, see people ring, then go away. But in 2010, 2011 when I finished my studies, that's when I fully joined the team. Now I joined the team because most of the ringers are choir members.
And I'm also a choir member and I also train music at the church. They recruited me into ringing, and that is how I found myself ringing. Our tower captain is also one of the music trainers. He told me why not come and assist me in ringing as well. I decided to join. And when I joined, I've never looked back because I feel it's a very interesting activity do.
[00:08:21] CATHY: How often do you ring?
[00:08:23] JOHN: Every Sunday we ring. We have four services at our church, but we ring in two services at 9 o'clock in the morning and at 11 o'clock in the morning, just before the two services begin. Then we do our ringing exercises on Saturdays at 5 p.m. 

Debbie's Path to Becoming a Bell Ringer

[00:08:45] CATHY: And Debbie, why did you start ringing? What was the story for you?
[00:08:51] DEBBIE: For me, I moved to Kilifi in 2011. When I joined ACK St Thomas Church, I used to hear bells ring, but I knew they were ringing to indicate that there's this service that is going to begin or an end of one service. So, So there was this day, in 2014, by that time I was dating John. I happened to be in church that day. Then there were these, visitors from UK who had come to do some ringing. Actually John just told me, why not just come wait for me, at the tower as we ring, then we'll go later when I'm done. So, when I went there then one of the visitors was called Rod, who was leading the training. So, he was like, why not just come and try? And I was like, okay, fine. Then that's when now he started teaching me, and then I was like, okay, so it's actually something that I can do. And then I was like, wow, I really to be involved in this because it's a very unique thing.
You can imagine it's the only church in Kenya and that's how I started ringing. And I really love ringing because, when you tell people about it, people are actually amazed that you are able to do something that is not very common in our country.
Yeah, And then of course when we went to UK, we were able to learn the various skills which I feel it's very interesting. And in a way, it keeps you fit because pulling the sally at sometimes, it's heavy. So, it's like you are working out in a way. 

Teaching and Sharing the Art of Bell Ringing

[00:10:24] CATHY: Do you teach the other ringers?
[00:10:26] JOHN: Yes. We do teach other ringers, especially after 2015 when we, came to UK to have the extensive training because we were also taught on how to train other ringers. Together with the tower captain, we assist in training, the bell handling and the methods as well.
[00:10:46] CATHY: Yes. And how do you find teaching people? Do you enjoy that? Or do you prefer just ringing yourselves? Which do you prefer?
[00:10:53] JOHN: Yeah, we enjoy teaching. Right at the beginning, you find like it's a hectic task, but the joy that we get is seeing people knowing how to ring. It's really, it really gives us joy. So, it's a very interesting thing to do.
[00:11:11] DEBBIE: I feel it's a very fulfilling thing to do because now when people come there, they are always scared of the bells. You know, when you don't handle it well, the way it moves. So, people always get scared, but now when you try telling them how to handle the bells properly, and then now they start it off and then of course with time, they end up getting to know how to handle the bell. It's such a very nice feeling knowing that you've been able to make this person ring. And at the end of it all it's also very nice that we are able to learn together some methods that you need, to be like a full band for you to be able to ring nicely. And now that we've been able to teach some people, it feels so nice that we can move from just the normal rounds ringing and try other methods like plain Hunt. 

Memorable Achievements in Bell Ringing

[00:12:03] CATHY: What was the last achievement that you had as a bell ringer?
[00:12:07] JOHN: For me, I think my last achievement would be ringing the quarter peal. When back in 2014, when the visitors came to Kenya, there were around 29 of them. We had our ringing room full of people. So, when they were here, I got a chance to ring a quarter peal.
And that was really interesting because I had not rung continuously for 45 minutes. So, I was nervous, but when I achieved it, it was really fulfilling. But again, when I came to the UK in 2015, because I rang my first quarter peal. I rang it here, but I rang on the tenor. I felt like I not doing a lot of work in it.
But when I came to UK, I want to say that my greatest achievement was ringing a quarter peal inside, at Clay Cross and I was ringing on Bell number two. That was my greatest achievement. I felt like I was part of the team I felt like I was helping them to do that job. Yeah.
[00:13:18] CATHY: Excellent. Debbie, what would you say was your greatest achievements as a bell ringer?
[00:13:23] DEBBIE: Yeah. for me, I can say my greatest achievement was being able to ring comfortably, Plain Hunt. Because when I started, I would only do rounds and I couldn't actually grasp the method. I was wondering how are even people moving, So when I grasp ed how to ring Plain Hunt, that was very great fulfilment on my side. And, with that, I was also able to do Plain Bob Doubles, which was also amazing. And then now when we went to the UK, now that was the best of it all. I was able to ring a quarter peal, of course first bell. But it was an achievement because it's something that I never knew I could actually do it and do it well. So, that was the greatest achievement I can say I achieved. And we are also learning. We continue learning and we know we'll be able to do the other methods without having any difficulties.
 

Overcoming Challenges in Learning to Ring

[00:14:24] CATHY: What's been the most difficult thing for you as a learner of ringing? What would you say to somebody who's starting out, you know, that you might find this difficult?
And how did you get over the time when that was difficult?
[00:14:38] JOHN: For me, it would be at the point of starting to learn how to ring. When you do it wrong, then it gets difficult as you continue. You grow up doing something which is wrong. And I found this difficult when I came to UK because I felt like I was taught how to ring, but I was not taught the right way.
So, I struggled, I think the first, two, three days I really struggled to know how to handle bells well. So, I think that is the most difficult thing. I would say that it is good as we train other ringers, we do it the right way. Once we do the bell handling the right way, then someone will not have any problems with ringing. So, the most difficult thing for me would be bell handling and bell control. I think I struggled with them very much.
[00:15:36] CATHY: What tips were you given that helped you to do that better?
[00:15:41] JOHN: Yeah. So, during the extensive training, I think that the trainers were using live examples; how to control the bell, especially when ringing Plain Hunt for example. When you are going out and you are going in. So, I remember one trainer telling me that, if you want to ring Plain Hunt well then remember how you, walk down the stairs and up the stairs. When you're going down the stairs, you need to go very fast. When you're going up the stairs, you go slightly slower, and that is the Plain Hunt that you are doing. So, when she told me that, actually when I went to the bells, I tried to apply that skill.
And I found things were going, so easily. So, I think, it's good to use some live examples as we train so people can understand the skill that we are training them. Now on the bell handling, I want to thank the trainers because they were patient with me. Yeah, when they were telling me what to do, I was so keen, listening and trying to apply what I was being taught.
And of course, reading the books that were there, it really helped me.
[00:16:59] CATHY: Debbie, what things have you found difficult and what tips have you been given that have helped you get over those problems?
[00:17:05] DEBBIE: So for me, the first time just handling the bell, I can say it was a challenge, the first day when I started ringing, but again, thank God I was trained by ringers from the UK . So, I think that's where the difference was between me and John because I was lucky. My first trainer was someone who knew how best to train on bell handling. And that one actually helped me a lot, I think. 
That's actually the game changer when it comes to ringing. if you handle the bell, well, you are able to control know, when you are in control you are able to do all methods well; when you are supposed go faster, the way John is saying, when you're climbing stairs when you're coming down the stairs the speed matters.
So, when you handle the bells correctly, that one will come out automatically without you struggling. So, when I grasped that, I think it became something that I felt it was so easy and I've been able to ensure that those that I train, I just try to make them understand that. We have to get it right at this stage because if we don't, it will become so difficult when you are doing the other ringing methods. So, that's something that I learned. And then of course getting to know the different ringing methods. I think there's just no shortcut there, but you need to make sure you read and understand the designs, which bell is moving. And then of course I was told your lead is always the treble. So, the treble is what leads you. So, make sure you know where the treble is all the time for you to be able to ring the methods well. So, that's something that I was able to grasp, and it helped me know how to do Bob Doubles. About the other methods, we can say as a Kilifi band, we kind of struggle moving forward to other major methods, because we are all learning. 

Technical hitch.

[00:19:05] CATHY: Sorry to interrupt here; we had a technical problem necessitating a change in recording setup. Now back to Debbie. You were explaining about methods. We were talking about difficulties and how you overcame them.
[00:19:18] DEBBIE: So, a challenge was learning the different methods, for Plain Hunt is not so difficult to master. But from Plain Hunt to the other methods, I was not understanding how people are doing it.
Then I came to learn the secret that the treble should be your guide. Like you should always know where the treble is. So, that's what I learned, and I've been able to try and make sure I figure that out for me to be able to understand how to ring the other methods well, yeah. 

The Impact of UK Training Trips on Kilifi Ringers

[00:19:52] CATHY: Can you tell me a little bit about your visits to the UK?
[00:19:55] JOHN: We came to UK in 2015 in June and, basically, we were just coming for training and yes, training we did because, right from the first day when we arrived, we had three areas that we went. The first one was in Kent where we trained at, Benenden.
Then we went to Cambridge. We were handed over to another team of trainers in Cambridge. Then from Cambridge, we went to Derbyshire where again we were handed over to another team of trainers. Every day we were going to different churches, and I think also the trainers wanted us to to feel the different types of bells in UK.
And, we also had an experience training on the simulators, something which we even didn't know that it was existing.
[00:20:47] CATHY: Do you have a simulator in Kilifi?
[00:20:50] JOHN: We don't have, we tried to fix one, but it didn't work, so we don't have a simulator here.
 

A Life-Changing Proposal in the UK

[00:20:57] CATHY: Debbie, there was something special that happened in your trip to the UK wasn't there. Something that wasn't ringing? It was something else. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
[00:21:06] DEBBIE: Yeah sure. I can say my trip to the UK changed my life, in all aspects. In aspects of ringing, in aspects of viewing life because we were able to see how people live in the UK, which was actually an eye-opener. It was so interesting. We really enjoyed we were able to visit different places in the UK which was a dream come true. We were able to go to the Palace, Buckingham Palace. That was so amazing for us. We really enjoyed it. So, yeah, when we were there in 2015, that's when I was surprised by John, who was then my date. So, he was like, okay now he wanted to go a step higher and yeah, so he did. What he did by proposing, of course, I never expected he will do that, but yeah, he did it, and yes who was I to say no? I said yes immediately and here we are.
[00:22:05] CATHY: Excellent.
[00:22:05] DEBBIE: Yeah.
[00:22:06] CATHY: So, that must have been a very exciting trip.
[00:22:09] DEBBIE: And a very memorable one. Besides ringing, we can say it was a memorable thing in our life. So, that's something that we really appreciate us going there and I really appreciate him thinking of it and making history by proposing while we were in the UK. So, it was so amazing with all the different ringers there witnessing all that. It was so amazing. It was wonderful.
[00:22:35] CATHY: Was there anything else to say about your trip to the UK?
[00:22:39] JOHN: Apart from ringing, we also had a chance to go and see the evensong at, Cambridge University. And we also visited King's College where we listened to the sweet music. It's something that I used to hear about, so I was happy at least, visit there to see the spectacular buildings which are there, and then to hear the choristers sing.
We also had a chance to visit Canterbury. I think that was wonderful. Yeah.
[00:23:16] DEBBIE: And of course, the different cities. Going to Cambridge. That was so amazing. And of course, again, the hosts, we were hosted by different people who are so friendly and loving, so we really appreciate that and we even really appreciate the idea of just them taking us from here and taking us to the UK for us to learn.
So, that's something that we really appreciate, and we are grateful for that.
[00:23:41] JOHN: And in Derbyshire the chance to eat a very sweet Italian pizza.
[00:23:49] CATHY: So, you've got some lovely memories.
[00:23:52] DEBBIE: Yeah, sure, we do. 
Yes. 

Community Impact Through Bell Ringers' Fundraising

[00:23:55] CATHY: And I want to talk about something completely different, which is John you mentioned a fundraising program. Can you tell me a little bit more about that fundraising program and how the bell ringers are involved with that?
[00:24:06] JOHN: We are doing a small program to create an impact in the community. We have very needy families who are very vulnerable, and therefore we thought perhaps we can create a program whereby we can be helping try and buy uniforms for children who are going to school, assist in constructing houses because where we come from people build temporary mud houses. So, when rains come, those houses are swept away. So, we are trying to work in collaboration with organisations around here but we focus majorly on children to ensure that they get quality education.
So, what we are doing is: we are contributing small amounts, which we use in assisting the families. We also try to run a program. It's a mentorship program that is intended to help the youth. We have cases of radicalisation, along the coastline. And therefore, these are things that we are trying to eliminate.
We have many youth who use hard drugs and therefore many of them are addicted to these hard drugs. And we felt like it's something that we can come in and assist the society. So, as bell ringers, we are trying to reach out to our friends so that they can assist us because, at times we are overwhelmed with the resources that are needed to run those programs.
So, we contribute small amounts so that we can help out. And that is why we request the bell ringers who may want to assist in these programs to help us. We feel that if this program picks up well, then it can be also a way of creating awareness of the bells that we have in Kilifi because through this program we can also draw people, come to church and be able to learn how to ring the bells as well.
[00:26:04] CATHY: That sounds very worthwhile. If people wanted to help you with that, how would they go about it?
[00:26:10] JOHN: We have a proposal that we have written, and we have sent it to friends who are helping us. We have sent it to our county government officials as well. So, if someone wanted to help out, then they can reach out to us and we'll be able to send them the proposal and then they will pick any item that they would want to assist.
[00:26:32] CATHY: Debbie, are you involved with this program as well?
[00:26:34] DEBBIE: Yes. We work together just to support that. So, identifying those that we see they actually need the support. So, that's the main thing that we do because of course, so many people are needy, but you need to identify the ones that actually need support at the moment. Of course, with the resources that, that we do have.
[00:26:53] CATHY: And this is something you are aware of because. Because I know both of you work for charities in Kilifi, don't you? 

The Charitable Work of John and Debbie

[00:27:00] CATHY: What organizations do you work for?
[00:27:02] JOHN: I work with a church and, this church works in partnership with another organization. So, what we do is we identify families that are needy. Then we take one child in every family that we support in matters of education, matters of health, matters of mentorship, and all-round aspects in life.
So, we support this child until the age of 22. That's when they exit the program. We do that because by age 22, we believe that this child has gone through their education, and they can be able to look for work to do. So, every Saturday they come to the program where we have a curriculum; we train them.
But you see now for a family, we only take one child. So, you can go to a family where you find it's very vulnerable and like a family has 10 children and you only pick one. The impact in that family is very little.
[00:28:04] CATHY: You're saying the impact of that family is very little because they have other children.
[00:28:09] JOHN: Yes,
[00:28:09] CATHY: Yes, but for that one child, it must be a big impact?
[00:28:14] JOHN: Yes, for one child, it'll be a big impact, but at times there could be a negative impact to the family because the other children will be like, why is our brother the only one who is being supported? So, it needs again, to create awareness so that they can understand that we cannot pick all the children. Rather than that we just pick one.
[00:28:37] CATHY: How do you pick them?
[00:28:39] JOHN: We have a poverty index tool that we use. We go to a family. We answer some questions and then, we come and analyse that tool and then we pick them, or we leave them. So, the family has to have a child who is between three to five years for them to be eligible to enrol into the program.
[00:28:59] CATHY: And Debbie, you work for charity too, don't you? Can you tell me a little bit about the charity work that you do?
[00:29:06] DEBBIE: I've been able to work with orphans and vulnerable children in the community. Kilifi County is an arid and semi-arid county. So, you find that for people to get food, like two meals a day, it's not common to every household.
So, you'll find that most of them, get just one meal, especially when it's not a harvest season. So, you find out that most people go hungry. They depend on casual work for them to get money. So, all the money that they get, they spend on food because that now becomes their priority.
So, most of them don't even have money to provide other needs of those children. For example, they need to pay school fees for them. They need to dress them and even shelter. So, you'll find out that most of them, that's something that they don't give it as a priority because of what they're able to get as parents.
The little they get, they just put it on food. So, for the organization that I've been working with, we were able to try and support children with school fees. Try to support them with school uniforms just to make sure they are in school. And then, without forgetting that the main challenge here is that parents are not able to provide because they don't have a source of income.
We are also able to identify parents that have got business ideas that they want to do and then support them with a business grant just to ensure that they're able to get something to support their children with because, even if we support children, we are not going to support them for a long time. It might be just a one-off thing, but if you support a parent to have a source of income, then you can be sure that they'll be able to support their children for quite a long period.
So, that's what we've been doing. And also supporting schools because we find out that during the dry season, children don't go to school because of course, they don't have meals. So, even those that go to school, they end up not concentrating in class. And then we have issues of children not attending school or children dropping out.
I've also worked with HIV, project where you find out that, there's children that have been born, with HIV aids. And for you to be able to grow well and be able to manage HIV, there's some things that you need, for example food, and maybe good shelter just to prevent the opportunistic infections.
[00:31:37] DEBBIE: So, there are organisations that are supporting, but there are things that they're not able to provide fully. So, like for example, shelter or even food for instance. So, you end up just trying to see how best you can help particular children because out of the ones that you're supporting, there are those who are so vulnerable. Even if you get one and you assist that one person out of the many. It's actually a fulfilment in a way yeah, that's what we are doing at the moment.
[00:32:09] CATHY: I see.

The Unforgettable Impact of Bell Ringing

[00:32:10] CATHY: The last question, what is the most remarkable thing that's happened to you that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't taken up bell ringing?
[00:32:17] JOHN: You wanna go first?
[00:32:19] DEBBIE: Yeah, I don't mind. To me, I would just say I wouldn't have gone to the UK if it were not for the bell ringing. So, I can say that's the most amazing thing. And I was like ah, it was just God-sent; God is the one who took me there for me to start learning how to ring bells.
And now I found myself with a, like a United Kingdom. It's everyone's dream to go to that country. So, I was so privileged to be part of the team that travelled to the UK and not just once, but twice. So, that was a very great privilege and I really thank God for that.
And then also the fact that I think I have a purpose going to church. So, just going to church knowing that you go there and then you go do bell ringing is also a satisfaction. So, yeah. I'm glad I took it up and yes, here we are.
[00:33:10] CATHY: Thank you and John. The same question to you. What is the most remarkable thing that's happened to you that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't taken up bell ringing?
[00:33:20] JOHN: Yeah. I think for me it's the same as Debbie's because I don't think I would've visited UK. I don't think I would've had a chance to take that eight-hour flight. Yeah. So, that is something that I really thank God that it happened to me. Not once, but twice. And something that, actually I need to thank God for is that even the ringers in the UK were telling us you guys are lucky because we are staying here in UK but we've not travelled all these places that you have travelled in two weeks. So, I think it's a privilege. It's really a privilege that, because we joined bell ringing, we are able to have a trip of our lifetime.

Gratitude and Reflections on the Journey

[00:34:05] JOHN: Thank you to my guests John Malala and Deborah Mulobi for telling us all about the ringing in the only church with bells hung for change ringing in East Africa. Thank you, Asante Sana.
[00:34:18] CATHY: If you've enjoyed this episode, then please share it. 
 

Credits

[00:34:21] CATHY: This podcast was put together by a team. Special thanks go to Anne Tansley Thomas, Emily Roderick, John Gwynne,
Emily Watts, and the society of Cambridge Youths for the ringing at the beginning of the show. And for the video at the end of the show of the ringing by the Lilliputter's Guild YouTuber, Simon Edwards. 
Thank you.

[Bells ringing call changes]