[00:00:00] MARTIN: And they decided that method ringing would be a sort of enjoyment in its own and you didn't need the competition, you didn't need the other sorts of things that were going on with ringing, that you would enjoy the ringing for its own sake.

And that was why they decided that method ringing would be a thing to introduce into Devon.

Ringing by the Society of Cambridge Youths

Welcome to the Fun With Bells Podcast

[00:00:29] CATHY: Hi, welcome to Fun With Bells, a podcast for bell ringers hosted by me, Cathy Booth.

Today, I'm talking with Martin Mansley, who is the Vice President of the Devon Guild. 

History of the Devon Guild

[00:00:39] CATHY: Devon Guild is the first territorial guild or association in Bellringing to celebrate its 150th anniversary, which they're doing this year.

The first question is, how did the Devon Guild come about?

[00:00:52] MARTIN: It was mainly set up by clergy and landed gentry who had been away, to places like Oxford and Cambridge and had come across method ringing. 

And they decided that method ringing would be a sort of enjoyment in its own and you didn't need the competition, you didn't need the other sorts of things that were going on with ringing, that you would enjoy the ringing for its own sake.

I think it was very much a thing of the time. Ringers seemed to have become a bit degenerate at that time. And particularly in Devon, there was a lot of competitions for prizes. And a lot of gambling went on. Associated with that, and of course that was run by the pubs. So, there was a lot of drinking and I think, one of the few times that Bells didn't ring was Sundays. 

Impact on Modern Ringing

[00:01:47] CATHY: And, the way that the Guild was set up, does that affect how it is run today or how it goes today?

[00:01:55] MARTIN: Unfortunately, probably, the fact that it can now be seen, and possibly at the time it could be seen as outside people coming and telling the locals what to do and how to do it. And I'm afraid that probably has had a detrimental effect over the years. On the other hand, I would imagine nowadays about 50 per cent of the ringers in the Guild have learnt elsewhere. 

[00:02:25] CATHY: And that's to maybe introduce the idea that there's this other tradition in Devon. 

Call Change Tradition in Devon

[00:02:31] MARTIN: Yes, the call change tradition. It is now. Very often, run by the Devon Association of Ringers, but there are a lot of other smaller associations who organise competitions, and the main thrust of a lot of call change ringing is the competition, and it is done in a particularly Devon way, in that most of the major competitions you rise the bells, you ring a test piece and then you lower the bells. The test piece is usually fixed on 8, it's the Queen's on peal it's the sixty on thirds. Most of the marks for a very good band are lost, in the rise and the lower. Most of these bands are very, very good at what they call the top ringing, and it's a tradition that continues definitely and very popularly. 

[00:03:27] CATHY: And they're celebrating their 100th anniversary. 

[00:03:29] MARTIN: They're celebrating the 100th anniversary next year.

 Almost by coincidence, but it means that we can join in with things together, that we celebrate both anniversaries.

Guild and Association Collaboration

[00:03:41] CATHY: Because you were telling me before the recording that the Guild and the Association work quite closely together now. 

Is that right?

[00:03:48] MARTIN: They work much more closely together. I think that was started in the 1970s when the Devon Church Bell Fund was set up and it was to cover all bells in Devon. And that includes towers that are affiliated to the Guild or the Association or none, and probably more towers are associated with none. More recently, the Ring in 2000 initiative meant that we decided we could work together on that one, and that one started up a lot of cooperation between the two, which when 2000 had happened. The general feeling was, we don't want to stop doing this, we don't want to stop this co-operation. 

Devon Ringers Council Formation

[00:04:33] MARTIN: So, the Devon Ringers Council was formed, and that is still in operation. In fact, it's probably as active as it's ever been at present, particularly with things like the Central Council coming to Devon, and other initiatives that we work together on. 

[00:04:50] CATHY: Okay. No, I just wanted to clear something up in my mind. 

Method vs Call Change Competitions

[00:04:53] CATHY: You said the call changes, they very much focus on competitions, but method ringers have competitions as well nowadays, don't they? 

[00:05:00] MARTIN: Oh, they do, I think the general feeling is that that's a relatively small part of method bringing and the Guild activities, whereas it's a major part of the Association activities. Most

of the times that, association members meet will be for a competition, whereas of course, the Guild has all sorts of other activities that go on, like ringing meetings, training days, all sorts of other things, as well as competitions. 

[00:05:30] CATHY: And you've explained the call changes competition. How is a method competition different?

[00:05:37] MARTIN: Well, it would be just with the bells up. Some of our competitions you can choose the method you ring, others you will be given a method to ring chosen by a committee. 

[00:05:50] CATHY: Coming back to the history of the Devon Guild, are there any stories that, you can tell me about?

Founding Members of the Devon Guild

[00:05:55] MARTIN: Well, I think, the major people that were involved, in the beginning of the Guild were, as I mentioned, landed gentry. The names that come to mind are Maitland Kelly actually owned Kelly, which is a village in the northwest of the county. A gentleman called Langdon Fulford, he was a solicitor, the first meeting was in his offices. And of course, Ellacombe was a member of that, group. Ellacombe was well known because of the Ellacombe chimes, which are still named after him. As far as we can understand it, the chimes that he developed were because he lived at that time in Somerset. It sounds like the area of Somerset, he lived in, it was a mining area, and the ringers and all the people in the village sounded a very rough lot. and he really did not want them in his tower, so that was why he developed the Ellacombe chimes. I think when he moved back to his native Devon when he was about 60, then things had improved quite a lot, and the church he moved to I think he had a much better relationship with the ringers there. 

Ellacombe Chimes Explained

[00:07:14] CATHY: Can you remind us what the Ellacombe Chimes are?

[00:07:17] MARTIN: The Ellacombe chimes are a rack that's on the wall with ropes down to it. The ropes lead up to hammers on the bells. The bells are down, and the hammer hits, the side of the bell, underneath the bell, and it's just a chime. So, it can be used by one person, often for Sunday service ringing or any other occasion, and you only need one person to do it, not six or eight or whatever. 

150th Anniversary Celebrations

[00:07:43] CATHY: how is the Devon Guild celebrating the 150th anniversary? 

[00:07:48] MARTIN: First, occasion was a Guild dinner. We had 130 people at that rather than the 150 would have liked. The venue was too small for that. However, it was an excellent evening with very good food. We were pleased to have Tina Stoecklin, the Central Council President, came and spoke to us, all together on an excellent evening. 

[00:08:12] CATHY: Right. 

Fundraising and Book Launch

[00:08:12] CATHY: And there was some fundraising.

[00:08:14] MARTIN: Was some fundraising, there was the usual raffle, we all had our arms twisted to pay for the raffle, but also, we had an auction, and a few people had offered gifts and different experiences for that, and the total raise was over a thousand pounds. 

[00:08:36] CATHY: There was a, was the book launched at that. 

[00:08:40] MARTIN: Yes, it was available that evening. Everybody got their first copy of that evening. The day after was the official launch. It was originally written by Reverend John Scott, a past president of the Central Council, and a very well-known bell historian. He wrote it at the centenary. Lester Yeo updated it up till. last year, so it covers mainly the 150 years of the Guild. He was also able to do a lot of research that possibly John Scott couldn't do, and he's been able to, update the information that John had given, particularly about some of the founding members of the Guild, he'd been able to research that, and then he'd updated it for things that had happened in the past 50 years.

The Book: Devon Bell Ringing 1874-2023

[00:09:28] CATHY: So, the book is called Devon Ringing, Devon Bell Ringing, 1874 to 2023. Now if I can pronounce this, sesquicentenary

[00:09:39] MARTIN: That's the one. Sesquicentenary. 

[00:09:42] CATHY: Very good of the Guild of the Devonshire Ringers. 

[00:09:47] MARTIN: That's correct, yes. 

[00:09:49] CATHY: What sort of things are in the book? 

[00:09:51] MARTIN: It is a history, and of course a lot of ringing is based on characters and there's a lot of it about the people who've been involved, as I say, there is, biographies of the early ringers particularly, in the later times it mentions people who were, important to develop ringing in Devon. Particularly conductors, people like John Longridge, John was a very skilled conductor, and at the time he moved to Devon in the 70s. He was probably one of the few people who could conduct peals in Devon. That has changed dramatically since, because of the influx of experienced ringers from outside.

Quite a lot of people have moved to Devon to retire and have brought with them their skills. That means that there are now many more bands of ringers able to ring longer quarter peals and peals than there were in those days. 

[00:10:52] CATHY: We've looked at the history, the book, the dinner, the characters, how Devon Guild's celebrating. 

Modernizing the Devon Guild

[00:11:00] CATHY: So, I've got my next question, which is, how has the Devon Guild brought itself up to date? 

[00:11:06] MARTIN: I think in a lot of ways, I was thinking back in the seventies, Peter Cummins, who lived in Cornwall, produced one of the first simulators, and that was actually used here in Devon, in a couple of towers, and ended up at Tor in Torquay, or by its other name Tor Mo Hun. That is now a Greek Orthodox church, but it was still allowed to ring the bells there, and it was set up in the tower there, and looking back I've discovered that I probably called the first quarter peal on a simulator when Peter came up to ring with it.

And he had never done that before. He'd never rung a quarter peal on it. So, we rang one and I've now discovered it's the first quarter peal rung on a simulator. So, we go back to those days when we were looking at technology. 

Technology in Bell Ringing

[00:12:03] MARTIN: That sort of faded for a little bit, but technology has caught up now and, there is what we now call the Denmisch simulator bells.

There's a set of 10 bells and they're in the Cathedral Choir School, right next to Exeter Cathedral, and are being used to teach some of the choir there. And of course, we've got the website up and running and used a lot and it shows how many people are using

it. 

New Membership Subscription System

[00:12:32] CATHY: I took a look at your website and saw that you've got a new membership subscription system. 

[00:12:38] MARTIN: Yes, membership system was set up just over 12 months ago because we wanted to contact all members. There was a certain amount of opposition to it, but now it's set up, it means that the Guild Officers can contact every member with a personal Dear Martin, as I get, about anything going on in the Guild. 

[00:13:00] CATHY: What did you have before 

[00:13:02] MARTIN: We paid our money to a branch treasurer who paid it to the guild treasurer, basically. The other very big advantage is the members give permission for how they want to be contacted. And that was the main reason for starting it up, so that, that covers a lot of, legal things that we have to do.

It means that everybody gives permission or not if they do want to be contacted, they've got written permission to do that and I think that's probably one of the major things but it does mean we can also sell merchandise that way. We can sell our t-shirts and our badges and other things particularly now we've got issues for the 150th anniversary.

We've got a new badge, and we've got t-shirts, etc. with that badge on, so you can buy one to mark the 150th anniversary. 

Martin's Personal Ringing Journey

[00:13:55] CATHY: I wanted to ask you about your experiences Martin, of ringing. When did you start ringing? What were your first experiences?

[00:14:03] MARTIN: It's very difficult to remember when I started ringing. I'm a member of a ringing family, I understand that I went to my first ringing meeting when I was six weeks old, and I've been involved in ringing ever since. So, it's very difficult to say because I think I sort of evolved into ringing rather than actually say a date when I actually learnt to ring. it happened over a period. 

[00:14:30] CATHY: I see. And have you throughout your life rung or were there 

Ringing Across Different Regions

[00:14:34] MARTIN: I certainly have, I've moved through the country. My first job was locally in Lancashire where I lived, but then I moved to Leicester and got very involved in the ringing there, and then to Wiltshire, again got involved in the ringing there, and eventually moved to Exeter and Devon. All the time, lots of ringing on. 

Was the ringing different? 

[00:14:57] CATHY: In the different places or what were the differences or similarities?

[00:15:01] MARTIN: Not 'til I got to Devon. Interestingly after a year I discovered I lived opposite a keen call change ringer. Our paths had never crossed in that first year, but he sent, a photograph to the Ringing World and when I saw the address I raced across the road with this picture and said, are you a ringer? Yes, I am. Are you? So, that is interesting. And I suppose also, in Devon, the call change has an influence in general, we raise our bells in Guild Towers in the Devon way, so we swing the bells twice and on the third swing we strike into rounds. So, it's in the rest of the country what is known in Devon as Bristol fashion and that is 1. 1, 2. 1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 3, 4.

That very rarely happens in Devon and so we get the bells up that way. When we get the bells down, we miss and catch in rounds in the way that method ringers do in the rest of the country, so it's a bit of a mixed-up fashion, but that is definitely something that, was very different when I moved to Devon. 

Martin's Roles and Responsibilities in the Guild

[00:16:21] CATHY: Now you've taken on various roles in your time, can you talk me through?

[00:16:26] MARTIN: Well, I suppose the reason that I'm a Vice President is because I've done quite a lot of those different things. I was a branch secretary in the Exeter branch. I became the education officer for the Guild, the first one. But looking back I discover that there were quite a few people in the early days who were paid to instruct. So that sort of went into abeyance over the years. I became the first what you might call modern times education officer, and that role has carried on ever since. So, we had a year when the annual meeting was not very well attended, and we were not quorate.

So, we had to do something about that and at that time, I was elected the Ringing Master of the Guild, and the Ringing Master is just for one year, it's just - a something you take on for a year. 

Annual General Meeting Evolution

[00:17:22] MARTIN: And during that year a group of us, a small committee, looked at the format of the AGM and the following year it was much more of a training event than just an annual meeting and the annual meeting was a very minor part of a very busy day of activities. And that meant that from then on, each branch who hosts the AGM can pretty well decide on the format that they want to take. The old format was a sort of tower grab followed by a service followed by the AGM. That was sort of how we did it. Once we'd broken the mould, any branch could decide how they want, they could do a traditional one or they could do something different and the AGM this year, which was also, another part of the 150th anniversary, that had quite a few different aspects to it, a small tower grab, and some workshops. And three of the senior members were interviewed, which has also been recorded, that is available on the Guild website. They were interviewed about their lives in ringing, many of them going back to the 1950s. 

[00:18:43] CATHY: Was there a service as well? 

[00:18:45] MARTIN: Yes, a very uplifting service, with a ringers' choir. That is another way that the association and the Guild have worked together. Every year we have a carol service, and every year, that is led by a choir mainly of ringers from both traditions, and that was really brought on some of the working together again and, the choir really lifted the service.

It was amazing and, a very good, ringer's sermon, it was a very uplifting service. And at the end of the day, we all had a group photograph taken by a drone, something that certainly would not have happened even 50 years ago, I think for a lot of us that was the first experience of having a drone take our photographs. 

[00:19:37] CATHY: Now, you've carried out all these roles. And obviously been very involved. Talking to somebody younger who hasn't taken up any of those roles, why would you 

recommend somebody does that? 

[00:19:47] MARTIN: I get a lot out of bell ringing, and it's nice to put something back.

I think that's a major thing because I've got so much out of it. I like to put something back, but there is also a lot of satisfaction, particularly in things like teaching, the training. There's a lot of satisfaction in seeing somebody progress. Sometimes it's that little click that says, Oh, I understand that. And when you get that moment, it's worth a lot. 

Family Tradition in Bell Ringing

[00:20:19] CATHY: And, can you tell me about how your family tradition has continued? 

[00:20:23] MARTIN: Well, my daughter is a ringer in Bristol, and to such an extent that she is a very well-known ringer and does a lot of peal ringing. Now when people meet me, they say, "Oh, you're Helen's Dad," rather than her being my daughter. 

Final 2 questions

[00:20:43] CATHY: So, apart from the towns that you regularly ring at, what's your favourite ring of bells and why? 

[00:20:50] MARTIN: I think probably Heavitree just outside Exeter. they're a wonderful ring of eight. The sound is, is really, really good. They're easy to ring. I just love them. 

[00:21:05] CATHY: Yes,

[00:21:06] MARTIN: it's difficult to describe why, but they're great.

[00:21:10] CATHY: Great, has anything remarkable happened to you that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't taken up bell ringing? 

[00:21:16] MARTIN: Absolutely no problem there. I met my wife.

[00:21:19] CATHY: Ah, right. She's a ringer too?

[00:21:22] MARTIN: She's a ringer too, yes.

 She's a ringer too. We met through ringing in Exeter, and she was in Exeter training as an occupational therapist, and we met there, and we've been together for over 40 years, yeah. 

[00:21:38] CATHY: Lovely. 

Conclusion and Thanks

[00:21:39] CATHY: Thank you very much indeed, Martin. Thank you to my guest Martin Mansley of the Devon Guild, which is celebrating its 150th anniversary this year.

 If you've enjoyed this episode, then please share it. 

This podcast was put together by a team. Special thanks go to Ann Tansley Thomas, Emily Roderick, John Gwynne, Emily Watts, the Society of Cambridge Youths for the ringing at the beginning of the show. And for the video at the end of the show of the ringing by the Lilliputter's Guild YouTuber, Simon Edwards. 

Thank you.

[Bells ringing call changes]