[Transcribed by Emily Watts]

Opening clips

[00:00:00] TINA: But we can't stop recruiting so that you just have a constant influx of people. But it's also actually not sitting back and waiting for people to come to you. You have to go and tap on people's shoulders. 

[00:00:10] ANDREW: It means trying to evolve. I don't think we can revolutionise in bellringing. It doesn't work, but we can evolve how we organise in our normal structures to meet the aspirations of young people. 

[00:00:25] MAX: So for young people heading off to university, there's a community there which helped me to continue in my ringing career. But it was that opportunity for leadership within the ringing world that helped me, I think, on my path towards ordination and church leadership.

Introduction to the Podcast and this Episode

[00:00:48] CATHY: Hi, welcome to Fun With Bells. A podcast for bell ringers hosted by me, Cathy Booth. This month we conclude the discussion that was started last month. We're at the ART Conference where I'm speaking to Tina Stoecklin, the President of the Central Council of Church Bell Ringers, Andrew Slade, the Chair of ART and the Reverend Max Drinkwater, who's the author of the book explaining Bell ringing to the clergy, 'The Voice of the Church'.

Tina, I'll start with you. 

The Central Council's Role in Preservation and Outreach

[00:01:14] CATHY: You were talking this morning, I should say, all of you have been in a discussion this morning that I was listening to intently, and you were talking about how the Central Council helps towers not to be picked off one by one for certain things. If you could tell me a little bit more about that.

[00:01:29] TINA: Yes. The Central Council is bad at some things and it's good at others. It's not particularly good at being innovators. And we are actually with Ringing 2030 initiative, we're trying to move that dial, but what we are good is at preservation and outreach to non-ringing organisations. And we are good at collecting expertise in order to share it out.

Addressing Noise Complaints and Bureaucratic Challenges

[00:01:51] TINA: So one of the examples that I gave this morning was the noise complaints helpline, which was set up quite a while ago, but it was because individual towers were having to deal with a whole realm of bureaucratic misunderstanding of what bell ringing was and wasn't, in terms of noise and frequency and volume and were getting bands shut down.

And the response to this was to create a helpline that tower captains or any ringer could call if they were struggling with this. And the encouragement is to do this as early as possible. We could help them to a negotiated solution that avoided any statutory compliance regulations anywhere where it got too far.

And I make that point particularly clear because it has been so successful, it's dropped off our radar a bit. That still exists. And I've come across two cases where somebody has wanted the bells quieted during the evening because they had young children and wanted to have the bells quiet. And they've actually just expected the ringers to ring during the day.

So that's not even a noise complaint situation, really, but individual towers should not have to deal with that on their own. It's again, trying to solve the same problem 5,000 times. If we can solve it once, and then make sure everybody's aware of it. It gives you some support and some assurance and some knowledge that you can draw on.

Rural vs. Urban: The Changing Landscape of Bell Ringing

[00:03:17] CATHY: And Andrew, one thing that stood out for me was you were talking about was statistics of rural versus towns and cities. Could you explain about that? 

[00:03:25] ANDREW: Yes, the Archbishop of York three, four years ago gave a very interesting speech at a synod. He pointed to two things that one was the reduction in the number of churches with clergy.

And I followed that up and found that the Office for National Statistics have charted a reduction in the number of people living in the countryside, steadily reducing from the 1950s. And we all think that there was a flight to the country at some point, but it's not true. It was matched by a flight the other way by others and the number of houses in the countryside doesn't rise dramatically. And in a lot of areas, talking to someone from Truro, this morning southwest, we all know the stories there of how many homes do we have and how many are owned by people who actually live and work here. And the same is true of the Dales in North Yorkshire, where I come from, and other areas of the Lake District in Cumbria and so on.

A lot of the dwellings are not owned by people who live and work. anywhere near, they're owned by other people and used on a small number of weeks of the year. And it's ripping the heart out of communities. But at the same time, the population that does live there is getting older, even older, and the average age is very worrying.

And it means a falling church population. It means church closures. And a lot of those churches have bells. And one of the things that the Yorkshire Association is trying to do is to work with our three dioceses, Sheffield, York and Leeds, to identify churches at risk and seek community uses, as is the church.

But we're supporting those with bells so that we can target our investment in bell repair funds, which as Tina mentioned this morning, some societies have a lot of money in the bank to do work on bells, not on bell ringing. 

[00:05:34] TINA: No 

[00:05:34] ANDREW: On bells. But we are seeking ways of intervening without fixing bells, which will never be rung in a church which has no future community or has a place of worship.

So it's a challenge, and that's a big challenge in certain areas and not a challenge at all in others. But there are other challenges in other areas where the incumbent church does not feel that the building necessarily of that church is the important thing, and that can also lead to a reduction in ringing.

Innovative Approaches to Church and Community Engagement

[00:06:11] CATHY: And Max, I had a follow up question for you. I was very interested when you talked about the way you give your sermons now, not being from the pulpit. If you could just... 

[00:06:20] MAX: no, so I was introduced this morning as the view from the pulpit, and I challenged that slightly and said actually I don't preach from the pulpit quite so often anymore.

Partly because the way we organise our services is very different to reflect the way we try to engage with the community. People who attend worship are expected to be slightly more invested in what's going on. And that's about empowering people to recognise their voice and to recognise their contribution to the community.

So as a church, we're very much trying not to be the church elevated high over the town or village and telling people what to do, but to work with different community groups, different stakeholders, different people who might want to use the church for different things. And no, the church is not going to move away from its core identity in Jesus Christ.

But to say actually, that means we recognise the dignity of all human beings and their worth and the power that their voice holds, that's part of the Christian calling. To say, if you want to use the church for different things, which bring the community together, then that's great. And ringing I hope, is one of those things, and therefore to make sure ringers are included in those decision making processes so that their voice can be heard and recognised and acknowledged and thanked.

One of the things that quite a few people I've spoken to today have said is that the vicar will very often list off the choir and the flower arrangers and the welcomers and the coffee makers. And where are the bell ringers? Because they're not seen often within the church space, they get forgotten. And so one of the things we're trying to do is to, as ringing clergy, is to raise awareness of that amongst clergy and other church leaders, so that there's a better awareness of who ringers are and what they might be able to offer to the church community.

Transitioning Leadership in Bell Ringing

[00:08:16] CATHY: One thing with the relatively elderly leaders in some places. How can we encourage people to have a smooth transition to leadership roles within those different places? 

[00:08:32] ANDREW: I'll kick off. I currently am president of the Yorkshire Association. It's a classically organised, 150 year old body. The last component of Yorkshire joined it only in 1971.

The bit round Leeds had its own association, and it didn't want anything to do with the Yorkshire Association until as late as 1971. And then it joined under sufferance. And the rules had to change in order to accommodate it. But the point I'm making is that we have classically organised bellringing. And we will not appeal to young people if we try to maintain that same classically organised branches with committees, with chairs, with ringing masters, with web secretaries and subscription collection mafia police to make sure we get the subs in. And then a similar structure at the organisational level above that with the grand committee of the grand what's it and they meet and pronounce on how we're going to ring.

But fundamentally we have, to some extent, lost sight of the fact that it's about ringing church bells. And for me it means trying to evolve. I don't think we can revolutionise in bellringing, it doesn't work. But we can evolve how we organise in our normal structures to meet the aspirations of young people. 

Embracing Modern Technology for Effective Communication

[00:10:03] ANDREW: But I come back.

They use these things. Second nature. Our members won't even use a website, some of them, or email addresses. They think they'll be sold to other people. So it's very hard to communicate with the members of a large, geographically orientated, organised association. Unless you're prepared to use modern technology.

And these days, we need to move much faster than our forebears did. Then, it was all fixed, the population was growing, it was becoming steadily richer. In the immediate post Second World War period, we've never had it so good according to Harold Macmillan. But that was a population which was growing in strength, in confidence, and economically.

That is not what we have. We have a completely different organisation. I'm 75 next week. We need to organise things differently. We need to give them, this is too easy to say, we need to give them a voice. But we also need to ask them what they want. And then we should get them to organise it and not try to organise it for them.

Because what we tend to do is try to organise them into the holes we created some years ago and were ones that worked for us. So we try to force the square peg into the square hole. And what we need to do is to give them the lead in organisation. Not aspire to become a member of the committee after 25 years servitude, penal or otherwise in a band, we need to give them their heads and there are plenty of them at the moment forming this Young Ringers Association. They will outgrow us if we don't watch it. 

So this is a real issue. 

[00:11:52] TINA: I remember joining the Central Council in the late 90s. And various members saying, just spend your first couple of years listening and getting to know how we work before you start speaking at a meeting, which seemed to me amazing, right?

It's a meeting, they work like meetings. So I'm hoping that none of our current council members give that information anymore.

The Challenge of Ageing Leadership and Recruitment

[00:12:16] TINA: But I think that the issue with ageing leadership is the same issue with ageing ringing, you know, ageing ringing bands is we can't stop recruiting and we can't stop recruiting at all levels, much as I would love to, because that takes up a lot of my time, but we can't stop recruiting so that you just have a constant influx of people.

But it's also actually not sitting back and waiting for people to come to you. You have to go and tap on people's shoulders and you have to decide. You're not going to tap on the people's shoulders necessarily that you know are comfortable with. Yeah. There's no easy answer to this though. 

Again, if we could start with a clean slate. We'd be laughing. There's the migration issue. 

[00:12:57] ANDREW: Yeah, we wouldn't do it this way if we were starting from scratch. 

Empowering Young Leaders in Bell Ringing

[00:13:02] MAX: One of the things I know ART has been looking at is training people in tower management and offering those resources to people which again it's not straightforward, but I think there are opportunities there to give young people some training and resources in how to lead because it it can be a an empowering thing.

I know there are bands, not everywhere, but there are bands where there is no succession of leadership because it's not clear to see where that next generation of leaders will come from. But there may be young people willing to step forward who are unsure of how to do that and what leading in that context might look like.

So again, one of the things the Church is doing is offering younger, leaders, potential leaders, some training in strategic thinking in management, in conflict resolution, whatever it might be. And there might be a case for offering some of those resources where it's helpful to young people, because if you can start leading a tower and managing a tower, that will give you resources then to go out into other organisations and to think, I have something to contribute and to join these organisations with a view to changing them, perhaps.

But doing that in a strategic and open way. 

[00:14:22] ANDREW: It's interesting, Max, that you raise that.

The Role of the Church in Bell Ringing Leadership

[00:14:23] ANDREW: I've only been Chair of ART for one year now, but I've been contacted by three diocesan offices asking for advice on how they cope with the appointment of Tower Captains. Now, a church will have all sorts of processes for appointing a rector, a vicar, a curate even, and they'll hold meetings and the church wardens will be involved and there'll be lots of meetings at diocesan level or whatever it is.

When they appoint the director of music, or whatever they're called, the organist, there'll be meetings. Are they a member of this? Are they a member of that? Do they have appropriate this, that, then the other? What happens at bell ringing is that bell ringers, forgive me, go to the pub and say, do you want to do it?

And then that person stays there for as long as they want to be Tower Captain. There are almost no fixed term appointments, no elections. The person who organises the ringing just gets on with it. And as long as they organise it, nobody really wants to step up. But I do think there's a role for the church and bell ringing to come to some agreements.

I think bell ringing is as important as the organ and the choir and the singing. For one thing, it's the only thing the church does which you can hear from more than 10 yards.

The Original Purpose of the Bells

[00:15:40] ANDREW: And that's the original purpose of the bells, was to make it clear to people that things were happening in that building. And I think that's a very valuable thing and we shouldn't let go. You mentioned sound, can you imagine trying to get permission to broadcast from the top of your building about something? You couldn't get it. And our brethren in God, at least, Muslims have had difficulties with their version of that, which is the muezzin from the top of their towers. And there've been issues there. Why?

We ring bells. So I think there is a point to say that bell ringing ought to, in a sense, professionalise itself a little bit more. And recognise its role, and appoint a Tower Captain, with all that training. All the support at ART, Central Council, Bell Foundry and others can give on the maintenance of bells, on the running of a safe practice, on all those other things.

And then the church will know that what goes on, usually up a spiral staircase, behind at least two doors, and completely out of sight, if not of hearing, they will have some surety that what is going on is right, proper, but mostly important it's safe and secure for all people. And we need to think about that because if there's one thing that kills ringing, in my experience in country areas, it's with a Ringing Master, a Tower Captain who outstays their abilities.

And doesn't step away and allow others, particularly young people, younger people, perhaps be someone under -

[00:17:20] TINA: 50-. 

[00:17:20] ANDREW: Yeah, quite. When I said under, I realised I made a mistake. I should have said over. But anyway, yes.

[00:17:33] CATHY: My last question. 

Personal Stories: Life-Changing Impact of Bell Ringing

[00:17:35] CATHY: Has anything remarkable happened to you that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't taken up bell ringing? 

[00:17:39] TINA: I can start yeah. My answer is the same as many guests on your podcast. The amazing thing that happened to me that wouldn't happen to me while ringing is almost my entire life, I met and married a bell ringer.

Bell ringing brought me to the UK where I now have a family, but I will tell a story. My son said, "what's the most amazing thing in your life?" When he was about seven and I said, "Oh, bell ringing." He said "You're supposed to say me." And I said, "you wouldn't exist without bell ringing. So bell ringing."

[00:18:10] ANDREW: Bellringing put me in contact with people who helped me understand that there was a lot more to life. They introduced me to structures of civic society. They introduced me to the Ancient Society of College Youths, they introduced me to ringing all over the country, and I got unremitting fantastic support from people that looked old to me, but they were probably 23 straight out of university, pretty much 22, 23, in London.

And they gave me a sense of, there's quite a lot there, if only you strive a bit. 

[00:18:58] CATHY: Thank you. 

Leadership Opportunities Through University Guilds

[00:19:00] MAX: We've been talking about leadership opportunities and I think for me I came up to a university and joined a university guild and there was an expectation, not a requirement as far as I know, but an expectation that there would be an undergraduate leader of that guild. And so in my second year as an undergraduate, I became master of the Cambridge University Guild. And going through then the process of discernment with the church, they're asking questions about leadership potential. And I had that experience of leading an organisation which included people a lot older than myself, and in a university guild like that there are people still ringing regularly with the undergraduate population who are much older, and I could point to that and say I have experience of leading people of a huge demographic range.

Because I've taken that role within bell ringing and we haven't talked much about university guilds. I think they are doing a huge amount of work in recruitment and training. And if we can resource those and link those up, so for young people heading off to university, there's a community there which helped me to continue in my ringing career.

But it was that opportunity for leadership within the ringing world that helped me, I think, on my path towards ordination and church leadership. 

Acknowledging Contributions and Closing Remarks

[00:20:19] CATHY: Thank you to my guests, Tina Stoecklin, President of the Central Council of Church Bellringers, Andrew Slade, Chair of ART, the Association of Ringing Teachers, and Max Drinkwater, author of the book, The Voice of the Church.

Thank you for that fascinating and wide ranging discussion. If you've enjoyed this episode, then please share it. This podcast was put together by a team. Special thanks go to Anne Tansley Thomas, Emily Roderick, John Gwynne, Emily Watts, the Society of Cambridge Youths for the ringing at the beginning of the show, and for the video at the end of the show of the ringing by the Lilliputters Guild, YouTuber Simon Edwards.

Thank you.