[Transcribed by Emily Watts]

Introduction to Bell Ringing and Citizenship Activities

[00:00:00] ANDREW: There is no primary school in the land that would turn down an offer from a local bell ringing team or group to come and give citizenship type activities. 

[00:00:13] TINA: We've done some trial lesson plans for primary age groups where we engage with music, maths, all the different topics that bell ringing can touch on.

[00:00:25] MAX: So, the church, your local church, may well have somebody whose role it is to link with schools, to have written risk assessments and done safeguarding assessments, which are all things that we need to do as ringers but might not have the capacity or the skills to do.

[Ringing by the Society of Cambridge Youths]

Welcome to Fun with Bells Podcast

[00:00:41] CATHY: Hi, welcome to Fun with Bells, a podcast for bell ringers, hosted by me, Cathy Booth. We're at the ART conference where I'm speaking to three leaders in the world of bell ringing about the future of change ringing. The aim is to let you know about current initiatives and give you tips on what to do to optimise things in your area.

Outlining the Ageing Demographic of Bell Ringers

[00:01:05] CATHY: However, I want to start on a sobering note. It's been estimated that 60 percent of bell ringers are over the age of 60. This demographic time bomb was brought home to me when I heard from one of my earlier podcast guests. Yes, I'm still ringing but only just. Covid had a huge effect on our ringing community, most of us being in the elderly bracket and many did not return.

Our elders were also our mentors, so we lost direction and tuition. We've teamed up with some local towers and borrowed some tutors, but only once a month, instead of once a week. So, clearly something needs to be done now for a sustainable future for bell ringing. I'm sorry to start on that sobering note, but I wanted to get that out the way while we talk about what we're going to do about it.

Future Initiatives for Bell Ringing: A Panel Discussion

[00:01:51] CATHY: So, now to my guests. Tina Stoecklin, the President of the Central Council of Church Bell Ringers, Andrew Slade, the Chair of ART and the Reverend Max Drinkwater, who is the author of the book Explaining Bell Ringing to the Clergy: The Voice of the Church. Tina, I'll start with you. 

Central Council's Efforts to Revitalize Bell Ringing

[00:02:08] CATHY: In a short sentence, can you summarise what the Central Council is doing now to improve the outlook for the future?

[00:02:15] TINA: We are doing about 12 projects. The first project that we're starting on is a wider marketing campaign to increase awareness of bell ringing and to help all the recruitment efforts in a centralised way. I'm wearing the results of some of that work. 

[00:02:32] CATHY: Excellent. And those that are watching on video will be able to see.

Okay. 

Training the Next Generation of Bell Ringers

[00:02:37] CATHY: Andrew, we need to train more ringers. How does the Association of Ringing Teachers help with this? And are there any plans to scale up resources? 

[00:02:45] ANDREW: Yeah indeed, there are plans to scale up resources. Our main thrust is in training people who can ring to teach ringing. This is to teach bell handling, but also to teach the early stages of change ringing, which is fundamental to the rest of the exercise.

We support a number of hubs, about 30, where there is a concentration of teaching going on and our plans for the future are to increase the number of hubs around the country. Particularly focused on the large tracts of all of the home countries who don't have hubs and where there is a relative dearth of ART members.

[00:03:27] CATHY: Excellent, right. 

Learning from the Church's Approach to Demographic Challenges

[00:03:28] CATHY: Max, the Church of England is facing a similar demographic challenge. What can Bellringers learn from the way the Church is addressing this issue? 

[00:03:37] MAX: It's true, the church is aware of that change in church association and membership as well, and one of the things that the church is looking at is that national picture, and where do we funnel resources, where do we concentrate our efforts so that we see those results in attracting younger people and more diverse people congregation, population that reflects the communities that we serve. So, part of that is about strategic thinking, and the church has a 10 year strategy, which we're already four years into. That's about making sure that we're aligning our spending, our prayer, our efforts on the things that are hopefully going to give us results in bringing people in.

Engaging Young People in Bell Ringing

[00:04:16] CATHY: To be successful with young people, what needs to be different from when you started ringing? Who would like to answer that one? 

[00:04:25] ANDREW: I'll go first on that one. I did start learning to ring when I was very young. I was classically trained as a bell ringer and I started as a choir boy. And I got to the point where my voice went and they paid us more to ring for weddings than they did for us to sing in the choir.

But that isn't common these days. Very few churches have choirs. We have no longer got a stream of young people coming to church, brought by their parents, their grandparents. Sunday schools are not as prevalent as they used to be when I was young. And that follow through isn't there. So, we have to get out there into the community, dig out the people that are there and encourage them, give them aspiration. With bell ringing you get, with respect, Reverend Drinkwater, there is more to ringing than ringing for service. And it takes you into a world outside the church. For some people, we need to appeal to those aspects rather than the church aspects. But in my experience, they will do both. 

[00:05:33] CATHY: You were talking this morning, I should say all of you have been in a discussion this morning that I was listening to intently, and you were talking about how the church can help us to engage with other youth organisations. If you could tell me a little bit about that.

[00:05:47] MAX: Yes, I think one of the changes in focus in the church is to realise that the church is all those who are associated with the church, it's not just the congregation who turn up for the principal act of worship. Although that's important to the church's identity, the church is also realising that the church is much bigger than that and much more than that.

When we say bellringers use the church space, that means you are part of that community, whether or not you profess a Christian faith, whether you're there for worship and prayer, you are still taking part in that community and therefore, certainly from the outside, you are ambassadors for that brand, if you want to use that sort of speak.

And that's a symbiotic relationship. So, the church has things that we can offer bell ringers and bell ringers have things that we can offer the church. One of the things that the church is spending money on and putting resources into is building up leaders who can communicate with and network with other organisations, particularly with schools and groups of young people, because that is a strategic priority for us.

So your local church may well have somebody whose role it is to link with schools, to have written risk assessments and done safeguarding assessments, which are all things that we need to do as ringers, but might not have the capacity or the skills to do. The church may well have somebody already doing that who can use those things to link in with a school to say actually, "Come and meet the ringers". Or this is an organisation which we have confidence in that we can promote to young people, to families, to say come and find out more and come and take part in this.

[00:07:21] CATHY: Great, thanks. 

The Role of Schools in Bell Ringing Recruitment

[00:07:22] CATHY: Tina, did you have anything to add? 

[00:07:23] TINA: I do, in my experience of working with primary age school children in a different role, where I ran a handbell club, it was not very hard to get them interested in ringing. But the difficulty that I faced was where do I take them next? And I didn't have a clear route to do that.

So it became a bit of an anomaly, sitting out there. But the pupils that I had in that handbell club still remember, and also still remember the pride they felt in the participation they had in the school activities and bell ringing for school assemblies and things like that. And for one or two young people who I think hadn't found anything they could be praised for, found this life transforming.

And I met one of them a couple of years ago and she's not a different person, but she's a much more confident person and has done some amazing things. And that was on the back of that first step of confidence. So, sometimes we're not training bell ringers. Sometimes we're helping people. We're providing a community where there often isn't a community and addressing loneliness. But very specifically, I think we also need to be listening to those younger voices and finding out what it is they want and how there are so many young people I meet in my role as President of the Central Council are full of ideas and enthusiasm and are amazing at thinking outside of the box.

And we have to stop telling them how it is less and listening to what they have to say. 

[00:08:56] CATHY: What initiatives are you aware of to help with recruitment, particularly to attract younger participants and diversify the age range of bell ringers? Are there any initiatives that you're aware of that do that? 

[00:09:08] ANDREW: Well, when there's a change of monarch, it can lead to massive recruitment.

But of course, nobody would wish to have a change of monarch every other year. But that did lead to a massive recruitment of new ringers. 

[00:09:24] CATHY: Were they young ringers? 

[00:09:25] ANDREW: In the main, no they were not. I think it's already been mentioned by Max and by Tina. We need to get to young people in the places where they congregate.

There is no primary school in the land that would turn down an offer from a local bell ringing team or group to come and give citizenship type activities. There are many aspects to bell ringing. There's a history, so you can connect to the history curriculum. There are mathematical aspects, so you can connect to the maths curriculum.

There are sound, so you can connect to music. And there are physical activities, so you can connect through to being in terms of physical activity. What it is if anything, is just a paucity of imagination or I'll be self critical, a lack of leadership on the part of those who currently lead. And we need to change that.

We need for them to understand there are many ways of connecting with young people. And as I think Tina's just said, it's not about telling, it's about engaging with them and their schools. Schools are the obvious place, they're all in one place for a start, and often the parents come and watch these enrichment activities.

It gives us the opportunity to attack all sorts of issues of key importance to a primary school's delivery through the medium of bells and bell ringing. 

[00:10:55] TINA: Yeah, we do, we have started some work on that at the Central Council through our Young Ringers Working Group. We've done some trial lesson plans for the primary school, for primary age groups where we engage with music, maths, all the different topics that bell ringing can touch on. And there is also some work underway to do something more mathematical at a university level. And one of my newest volunteers has come up with the brilliant idea of having some knowledge transfer in the engineering sphere at that same space to try and get some of the vast repertoire of knowledge that we have in bell ringing and spread it out a little bit more widely in the community.

Maintaining Interest Among Young Bell Ringers

[00:11:38] CATHY: How do we keep the interest of young bell ringers once we've got them through the door? I'm aware of the National Youth Festival, but what else is there?

[00:11:45] ANDREW: There are all sorts of things, but I'll just touch on one. We are converting the sole surviving bell foundry into a museum and experience space. Not just for the casting of bells, but for the whole of bell ringing. And that includes an attempt to engage with young people from all across Leicestershire initially, because it's based in Loughborough. But the idea is it will be a national museum. And in that way, we hope to do what most national museums do, which is to appeal widely to young people.

School trips currently come. We're hoping to grow on those there. So, that's something that the Bell Foundry is doing. It's a charitable trust, not the people who make the bells, they're our tenants, but Taylor's part of the Bell Foundry Trust. From others perspectives, I think Tina 

[00:12:36] CATHY: When you've got some young people, maybe you've only got one or two in your tower, how do you keep them engaged? 

[00:12:42] TINA: You need three or four or five. Yeah. 

[00:12:45] CATHY: And how do you get them? 

[00:12:46] TINA: Yeah. It's tricky. There's definitely a tipping point and we've accidentally happened upon it in Glasgow where we now have seven or eight ringers under 30 and they have their own sort of little private network. It's not exclusive, but they share information and also share information with other new ringers.

So it doesn't even matter whether you're specifically recruiting young people. You need to just constantly bring new people in because some of our learners who've been learning for maybe a year or two have very valuable experience to share who the people are just starting off. But my kids learned to ring and gave it up.

And in a large part, it was because they were the only young person in the tower and everybody else was pretty grey. And they didn't feel unwelcome or anything. It just didn't feel like. It just felt like a lot of something extra to do that wasn't really getting them a lot of fun. 

[00:13:38] ANDREW: To be honest, there are the structures of bell ringing, which include the Central Council. I'm President of the Yorkshire Association of change ringers.

We need to be careful because the young ringers themselves are actually forming their own association, the Young Ringers Association. They have their own organisation. They do not have rule books. They do not have annual meetings. They have a mobile phone and they do everything through modern technology and their members pay.

A good sum of money, a lot more than a lot of members to geographically organized bell ringing associations do. 

[00:14:19] TINA: So, I think 

[00:14:20] ANDREW: What we have to do is learn from them. We should learn from that.

[00:14:22] TINA: Absolutely 100%. Max, this definitely has something to do as well with getting more young people involved in the church.

And I'm very aware where you talked this morning about it's not just about being part of the congregation. It's about being part of that wider community. And I think with lockdown, loneliness has been a big thing and there's a big hole in our communities all over the place. So, the problems we face in bell ringing must be similar.

[00:14:49] MAX: Very similar. And what we noticed in the church is that there's that huge missing generation. And that generation actually is the generation who are currently grandparents. That's the generation that went from church. So, their children, who are currently the parents of young people. have no church experience whatsoever. So, if we are trying to attract young people, we've also got to educate and invite their parents who have no understanding of what this is about.

So, you've also got to draw them in, and that I think will help to keep young people, if their parents, their families, at least understand what they are doing and can talk about it at home and can encourage them. And you never know, you might get some parents coming along and learning as well.

But we are so far back in our engagement because of that. legacy of a missing generation, who, as you say, are missing for many reasons. 

Leveraging Technology in Bell Ringing

[00:15:55] CATHY: I'm going to jump to a completely different topic, which is one of my favourites, because I'm a gadget person, is you mentioned the mobile phone, but what technology can we use, or what uses of technology does bell ringing have that can engage people who are interested in technology. 

[00:16:10] ANDREW: Well, Tina, you can talk about better than I, but the obvious one is the tools that became available during lockdown.

[00:16:18] TINA: Yeah. Ringing room, handbell stadium, also using gaming devices like Discord and stuff to talk about bell ringing. We taught three or four people to ring handbells using ringing bells, the e bells, the simulated bells you can plug in and use. But it goes beyond that as well. We have online databases of historical documents, of registers of church bells, the Dove's Guide. Is also all completely online. Plus all of the software that we use, all the simulators that we use, there's mobile phone apps to help you learn methods, to help you practice methods, brilliant little flashcard apps.

One of which was written by an A level student and it's a really good app. It is based at sort of an ART level of learning. So, it's really good, but it's bright. It's colorful. The user interface is fun. It's really nicely done. But all of that depends on software libraries. and index collections that we maintain as a Central Council.

It's a little hidden, but important service that we offer. But yeah, we want more of that rather than less. And we have some ambitions. It might be a bit early to talk about them at this stage. Yeah. 

[00:17:26] CATHY: Oh, okay. Watch this space. 

[00:17:28] TINA: Yeah. 

[00:17:29] MAX: I think one of my observations there is, as the church, is that the church has always perhaps put in a privileged position, this in person interactivity.

Worship is fundamentally about the body, about in person activity, and that's true of ringing as well. But I think if we lost that, as we did in lockdown, people are questioning the tapping buttons on the keyboard, is that really ringing? So, it's about making the most of the technological advances to facilitate what we do together as a community and in person.

And ringing has that wonderful mix of physical activity, of mental discipline, of social activity that we want to celebrate. So, it's making the most of that technology to bring people together, but not at the expense of the physical interaction. 

[00:18:16] TINA: I disagree just a smidge. Actually, I enjoy ringing in a real ringing chamber on real bells with real people.

And that social connection is great. But during the lockdown, I rang with people from Australia. I rang with people from America and actually some of those ringing relationships still remain. And that was only possible through using online simulations. And I can think of an example in rock climbing where you have these indoor climbing there's like, "Oh, that's just going to replace outdoor climbing." and that's not real and stuff. And now indoor rock climbing is a whole thing all by itself. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that simulated ringing, becomes a whole thing all by itself. It just involves more people. There are some people maybe physically can't ring a real bell, physically can't go into that space, can't climb the stairs, or just find the number of people neurologically overwhelming, and that virtual space is a much easier space for them.

Why can't we let them experience ringing there as well as in the real place? 

[00:19:17] ANDREW: There's also another use of technology we use that was behind your question. We are all interested in standards in our life. And in particular, we're interested in standards of bell ringing. And for us, that is almost like a musical standard.

Is it evenly struck? Do the bells sound as though they're rhythmical together instead of just ringing at odd times? They have to ring together in change ringing, that's the important thing. And there are various tools, HawkEar is one, although other systems that are no doubt available. But, it enables you to get an argumentative but independent view of how well your bell is being struck amongst the others.

But of course, it's everyone together that makes the sound. It isn't one violin out of the 30 in the orchestra, it's all of the violins. So, it can be, it can lead to interesting discussions. It wasn't me that was late, you were early. But it is another use of where technology has come to play in assisting standards in bellringing.

[00:20:18] CATHY: Okay, so HawkEar is something that measures striking. 

[00:20:22] ANDREW: You record the sound and then you get a large file of sounds and then you basically edit it into chunks. You label it up as what it was at that time, hopefully with the method, and then you can then circulate it as essentially a diagrammatic and numbers based description of where your bell rang compared to where it should, could, might have rung in the centre of the space that you had to ring in. So, if you're too soon, it'll be down here somewhere. If you're too late, it's up there. But if you're about right, it'll be in the middle. 

[00:21:03] TINA: It's a Garmin on speed is what it is, really, isn't it? 

[00:21:07] ANDREW: It has led to a lot of debate in the pub afterwards. 

[00:21:11] CATHY: But like, what is it, the Hawk-Eye?

[00:21:13] ANDREW: Yeah, it's similar to that. Yes it is. It's a useful tool. And it's again, a technology and every 12 bell band practicing for 12 bell competitions is using it. 

Collaboration for a Diverse Bell Ringing Community

[00:21:25] CATHY: How can the bell ringing community work together with schools, churches, youth organisations and local communities to spark interest amongst a more diverse audience? 

[00:21:36] ANDREW: A sort of glib answer to that is that we have to recognise each other's strength and contribution.

If we carry on as though we are the reason why this building is here and the people turn up and you don't recognise the contribution that schools make to the community, and therefore to church and the living space we all share. Our town, our village, our whatever, our street, our city. If we don't recognise each other's contribution, then we'll be picked off by events.

[00:22:11] MAX: I highlighted this morning, the church's awareness of people's different routes into church engagement from different class backgrounds and social backgrounds. And I think that's something that we're aware of that the Church of England is putting a lot of money into reaching people in traditionally impoverished areas and empowering them and enabling them.

So going out there and not saying, "we're the Church, we've got something to offer you", but actually "you are the Church. Come and learn together and join together." Which is exactly what we're saying about ringing, going out to these places and saying come and join this movement from all sorts of different backgrounds.

So that is being aware of how accessible is ringing to people of different educational backgrounds, how much does it cost to ring, can cost to ring. People from different cultures, musical cultures, it all feeds into this wonderful melting pot. As we said, we don't know what it will look like in the future.

And that can be quite challenging for those who are already ringers, because going out there and doing that process does mean that the culture of ringing changes. And that can be quite scary for a lot of people. So, it's, it's acknowledging that, doing it intentionally and being willing to, to go through that process, I think is so important.

So thank you Tina for reminding us about the accessibility factor involved in technology so that, that might enable people who are less physically able or have other accessibility needs to engage with ringing in different ways. 

[00:23:44] TINA: And this is what we do need to really think about how we ring. I think on Andrew's point, we need to also recognise our strengths and weaknesses within ringing based groups, so that we're not all trying to solve the same problem all at the same time.

So there are certain problems ART can solve better than the Central Council, and so we can work together and we can support each other and solve those problems and vice versa. But also there are certain sacred ringing institutions that we might need to rethink. 

Rethinking Social Activities in Bell Ringing

[00:24:14] TINA: Let's talk about going to the pub. Let's talk about going to the pub.

So there's a lot of young people who don't like going to the pub. Young people are drinking less, but also age restrictions means it's harder for them to go to the pub if you're teaching somebody who's 14 or 15, and you finish the practice and everybody goes off and has a nice social time, and you're leaving behind half your band.

So do we need to think about other ways to have social interaction and create that sense of community? And also looking at there are a lot of people for religious reasons or other reasons do not drink and do not want to go to the pub and we're leaving them out. And also people with young families just can't.

You know, they're not awake enough. And often then it's one or the other going to the pub and, sorry we know which one usually ends up staying home with the kids. And now you've lost half your band. So, we have to think about some really fundamental things like that. And that's not something ART can solve.

That's not something the Central Councils can solve. And that's not something the Church can solve, but we can encourage some discussion about it and try and make us, yeah, more welcoming. 

[00:25:23] ANDREW: I have to say that the current economic climate gets help in there as the number of pubs in my town of Richmond, North Yorkshire has plummeted in recent years.

The choice is limited and we are now saying, why don't we have a cup of coffee at Andrew's house? Because it's less than a hundred meters from the church. 

Wrapping Up and Looking Ahead

[00:25:41] CATHY: Talking of having cups of coffee, we're going to break there because this discussion was quite long. The second half of the discussion will be published next month as part two.

In it we're going to be discussing, amongst other things, how the Central Council can best help you, the changing demographics of rural versus urban areas and the effect of that on ringing, empowering young people in ringing, and remarkable things that have happened to Tina, Andrew and Max because of bell ringing.

If you've enjoyed this episode, then please share it. 

Acknowledgements and Credits

[00:26:16] CATHY: This podcast was put together by a team. Special thanks go to Anne Tansley Thomas, Emily Roderick, John Gwynne, Emily Watts, the Society of Cambridge Youths for the ringing at the beginning of the show, and for the video at the end of the show of the ringing by the Lilliputters Guild, YouTuber Simon Edwards.

Thank you.

[Bells ringing call changes]